Mar 29, 2026
In Season 14, Episode 6 of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, host Dr. Jill Creighton sits down with Dr. Kevin McClure, author of The Caring University: Reimagining the Higher Education Workplace After the Great Resignation. This candid conversation is a must-listen for anyone invested in the future of higher education or passionate about changing workplace culture for the better.
From the outset, Dr. McClure grounds his message in lived experience, sharing his journey from student affairs professional to department chair and faculty member. What becomes clear is that his new book—and this episode—are rooted in genuine care: for staff, for faculty, and for the systems in which they work. He makes a compelling case that prioritizing employee well-being in higher ed needs to be a fundamental goal, not just a means to an end for better student outcomes
The conversation dives deep into the idea of “organizational care,” contrasting it with the often isolating American emphasis on self-care. Dr. McClure introduces the lens of “squad care,” asking listeners to reconsider how institutions themselves can become communities that collectively support employee thriving. He shares that although there are pockets of progress, the true “caring university” is still aspirational—requiring leaders to combine data, strategy, and a willingness to take bold action.
A concept that resonates throughout the episode is the critique of “ideal worker norms.” Dr. McClure unpacks how outdated expectations, rooted in gendered and ableist assumptions, persist in our workplaces—often dictating who succeeds and who gets left behind. He calls for challenging these norms and embracing more flexible, human-centered models of work.
Listeners will come away with practical insights. The six pillars of the caring university—ranging from humanizing policies and prioritizing employee experience, to cultivating caring leaders—offer a tangible framework anyone can begin to explore. Dr. McClure emphasizes that meaningful change isn’t about grand gestures; it’s about taking swings, trying new things, and considering employee well-being as foundational to institutional success.
For new professionals eager for a bright future in student affairs, and for seasoned leaders seeking actionable ideas, this episode is rich with hope, clarity, and direction. Tune in to hear why caring for “the people who show up for people” should be the next big priority in higher ed—and how we can collaboratively shape more humane, equitable workplaces.
Ready to reimagine what’s possible in higher education? Start by listening to the full conversation today!
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where
we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to
seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and
accessible professional development for higher education
professionals wherever you happen to be. This is Season 14,
continuing our conversation on the value of student affairs. I'm
Dr. Jill Creighton, she/her/hers, your SA Voices from the Field
host. Kevin, welcome to SA Voices.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:00:28]:
Hello, I'm so excited to be here.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:30]:
You are another one of our conversations that we get to capture
live and in person for SA Voices here at 2026 Annual Conference in
Kansas City. So I know listeners, by the time you're hearing this,
you're like, well, Annual was a while ago. We know, but we're glad
to bring you these conversations. And so you, if you weren't able
to be here, you get to be a part of it. And if you were able to be
here, I know how ephemeral those spaces can be, and hopefully you
can kind of revisit some of the information in Kevin's keynote
speech. So Kevin, you have just spent an hour on stage, going
through your new book, which is called The Caring University:
Reimagining the Higher Education Workplace After the Great
Resignation. You also did a book signing, so thank you for spending
time with the members.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:01:09]:
Yeah.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:09]:
So we also know that you've been talking a lot, and we appreciate
you spending one more hour with us.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:01:13]:
Sure, absolutely.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:14]:
We always like to start by asking our guests, how did you get to
your current seat? You're both a department chair and a
professor.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:01:20]:
That's right. Yes, but I started in student affairs as a staff
member, so origin story in housing, and then I transitioned into a
living-learning program at the University of Maryland called Global
Communities, and that was the best job I've ever had. So I peaked a
little too early. That was my first professional job, and I
absolutely loved it, loved every minute of it, and got to work
really closely with students and do all sorts of cool programming
with them. And as time went on, Maryland really wanted all of their
living-learning programs to have a faculty director, and so I kind
of got bumped out of my role as a faculty director came online, and
it was a moment where I said, I might need to think about
continuing my education. I don't know exactly where I want to go,
but I don't want to be limited in what I can do, and I don't want
it to be the case that I get bumped from another job by virtue of
not having a terminal degree. So I entered a doctoral program, was
finishing that. I was applying to higher ed staff jobs.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:02:23]:
I was applying to a couple of policy jobs, and just kind of tossed
my name in for a couple of faculty jobs. Jobs, not really thinking
that that was going to be a thing. And I ended up getting this job
at the University of North Carolina Wilmington, and I've been there
for almost 12 years now teaching in our higher education program,
and then within the last 8 months stepping in to become the
department chair.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:46]:
I know this is terrible and it will show that I am an elder
millennial, but my biggest association with Wilmington is Dawson's
Creek.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:02:52]:
Oh yes, Dawson's Creek, and also One Tree Hill was also filmed
there. So it depends on what you watch, what you grew up on, but we
still will have gatherings of people that come Wilmington based on
their love of the show. Most of them are elder millennial women,
and sometimes the stars will come back and do like events and that
sort of thing.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:10]:
Well, there you go, claim to fame, and of course a university in
which you are.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:03:13]:
We also have that. Yes, we have a beach. We have some other things
too.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:16]:
So I think that journey from practitioner to professor is one that
a lot of new professionals or mid-career professionals are really
interested in pursuing. Can you talk a little bit about that leap
of faith from being a full-time practitioner to going, you know, I
know I need this terminal for a job, but I also might need to not
have a job while I get the terminal. Terminal?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:03:34]:
Yeah, exactly. So I started doing my PhD while still working
full-time, and I did that for a year, and it worked fairly well in
the sense that I was keeping up with things. My wife was teaching
at the time, and so we just were not seeing each other really at
all. And as a consequence, we decided in the last couple of years
of my doc program to move in and become house directors of a
sorority house. And I also went from from being a full-time staff
member back to being a graduate assistant. So we took on the
financial loss of me not having a salary, but the trade-off was
that I would be able to finish the degree faster because otherwise
I think we were looking at a much longer journey as I was trying to
kind of balance the two. And at the time we didn't have as many
program options. Today there's a lot more program options for
people who are working full-time.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:04:29]:
And so that's how I made the decision to kind of step back and step
into a graduate assistantship role again. And maybe not ideal from
a career trajectory standpoint, but better for me to be able to
finish my studies. And then we were off and racing from there.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:45]:
So you finished the dissertation, you've got probably maybe an
article or two under your belt at that time. Talk to us about going
on the faculty search.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:04:53]:
Yeah, I guess I had an article that I had published and I had
dissertation stuff in progress. I was not prepared for a faculty
job search. I had never done one before. I had never been a
participant in one. I had done no programs for future faculty. I
was in many ways what I would think of as kind of a long shot
candidate. I got this interview at UNCW and I reached out to one of
my mentors, Carrie-Anne O'Meara, and I had to basically say, I've
got this interview, help me because I'm not ready for this. So she
gave me kind of a crash course in the faculty hiring process and
what I could expect and some of the questions that they might ask
of me.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:05:35]:
And I was very lucky in that they were looking for a particular
type of person who teaches certain subject matter, and I was able
to do that and apparently fit what they were looking for. I still
tend to think they took a chance on me. I don't know that they
would necessarily put it that way, but I was still very green in a
lot of ways and certainly needed to do a lot of catching up to
being a faculty member. So I spent that first year learning a lot
of things the hard way and having to learn things that I think some
of my peers were already up and up on by virtue of just having
prepared for that type of job better than I did. But I got there
eventually. I figured it out.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:14]:
So what are some of those things that happen in faculty hiring that
student affairs professionals might go, huh, I never thought about
that before?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:06:20]:
Well, for one thing, we do have typically some type of a teaching
demonstration, something that would kind of signal that you're a
good teacher, you've got some teaching experience. And so that can
be a little bit different compared to other hiring processes that
you might have been accustomed to. You're going to meet a lot of
faculty across the entire department, and that doesn't differ
necessarily from what you might experience in a staff role. But
what is different is just faculty personalities, and you're going
to meet a lot of different people, a lot of people who are not
probably as professionally socialized in such a way that they know
the types of questions that they ought to ask versus the questions
they're not supposed to ask. And you're more likely to run into
some folks that in the faculty world, we kind of over-index in
neurodivergence. And so you kind of have to be prepared for all
sorts of different types of questions and all sorts of different
types of people. Beyond that though, I think the faculty job
search, at least structurally, probably mirrors a lot of
professional jobs. It's just obviously kind of what they're
evaluating on is a little bit different.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:22]:
So you're in this position and then you're developing as a
researcher, developing as a scholar. COVID emerges in the world.
And that kind of becomes the impetus for the book that we're
talking about today, which is The Caring University. How did this
experience that we were all having collectively inspire you to
begin collecting the stories that would ultimately become this
book?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:07:43]:
One of the things that was a big motivator for me was I was seeing,
noticing a lot of pain. There were a lot of people in our work that
were really struggling, and we had folks that were being asked to
work in dangerous conditions where they were really scared. We were
losing good people. I had seen a whole group of students that we
had educated in our program that were opting to step out of higher
ed work, and I just felt that there was the need and really felt
this with urgency, a need to put together something that could help
so that we don't lose good people and that we were able to just
ease that suffering that I saw. And so, yes, a piece of this for me
was trying to capture people's experiences, trying to steward their
stories, because I wanted people to be able to read the book and to
say this is resonant, which is to say, this feels like higher ed.
This feels like the people that I know. This feels like the
experiences we've had. This doesn't feel like an academic book
detached from what we're about and who we are.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:09:02]:
And so there is throughout just a real conscious effort to try to
weave those stories in as much as possible. And I wanted their
voices to be part of this. I wanted it to be impossible for someone
in a leadership role to look away or to brush this aside because it
was written by a faculty member. I wanted them to read it and to
say, these are the voices of the people in our world, and I need to
give some attention to that.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:27]:
If you're a doctoral student nerd, it's very ethnographic in its
approach, or, and autoethnographic in places. It also has quite a
few vignettes of stories. So as a practitioner, to read it, I do
think you've met that goal of not feeling like, hey, this is a
faculty member telling practitioners what to do. It's more of, here
are the stories of real practitioners, and how can the institutions
around us kind of meet some different goals around human-centered
supervision, human-centered organizational structures, et cetera.
But before we get into that, I'm going to ask you, if you asked an
AI bot to summarize your book, what would the bot say?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:10:00]:
The AI bot would say that The Caring University is about
organizational change in such a way that we better prioritize the
well-being of staff and faculty, full stop. It is not prioritizing
the well-being of staff and faculty so that we can better serve
students. It is somewhat transgressively suggesting that supporting
faculty and staff by itself is a worthy goal that should be part of
what we do operationally. And so I make the case for why I think we
need change, why that change needs to be organizational so that it
speaks to our underlying cultures and our structures. And then I
try to suggest a set of 6 overarching organizational changes that I
think will help us better prioritizes the well-being of our
employees. It's not going to answer every question. I certainly
have not included every solution under the sun in this, but it
offers something of a menu that a leader could look through and to
say, hmm, there might be something here that we could try or adapt.
And that adaptation piece is really important because by design, I
didn't want this to be a change checklist where someone says, this
is exactly what I have to do in order to get this outcome.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:11:14]:
It's going to take a little bit more work than that. Someone's
going to have to kind of sit with this and to say, what piece of
this do I I think could work here, or maybe we'll take a piece of
this and a piece of that, and then together that could be
beneficial. And so as much as it tries to be a resource and offer
those examples, it does call on us to try to figure out how this
would fit within our specific context.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:35]:
One of the things you talked about on stage was this mission that
we need kind of the collaborative lens of both self-care and
organizational care. In American culture in particular, there's so
much individualism wrapped up in the way that we're supposed to
care for ourselves. We this with people who are parenting. We see
this with people who are managing illness and a number of different
things where taking space for being a whole human can often be seen
as not giving enough to an organization. And that's a cultural
challenge that we have in America. And that's not specific to the
US. As many of our listeners know, I work in the UK and there's a
different set of values around work that happen, but still that
individualized perspective is fairly common in capitalistic
structures in general. So I want to echo also something from
Melissa Harris Perry.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:23]:
Who's another wonderful author. She has a book out called Sister
Citizens, 10 years old now, maybe? That book's been around for a
while, but she talks about squad care instead of individual care. I
heard echoes of that kind of mantra when you were speaking to us
earlier today, but I'm hoping you can give us some examples of when
you've seen universities engage in that organizational squad care
that actually helps humans thrive.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:12:44]:
Yeah, it's a great question, and I have seen it show up in in
pockets in lots of different types of campuses. As of yet, I can't
point to an institution that I feel is knocking it out of the park.
And that's kind of reality of institutional life where at the same
time we might be making progress on an initiative, we're also still
struggling in some other areas. And so I just try to be real about
that. The places though where I have seen progress What I can say
is there are often a couple of factors involved. One is they often
have already been doing some things. So even prior to the arrival
of this book, before I was doing any of this work, they likely
already had a level of attentiveness to the employee experience
that meant when this came to them, this concept, they were ready to
roll with it in a different kind of way. Some of that is about
leaders And I don't love to, first of all, put the responsibility
for this on all leaders.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:13:46]:
I also don't like to say that a leader is the one that's gonna pull
all this off. But the truth is that some of the places that have
really made progress on it, it's because they've often had a really
strong, caring leader that already values this. They want to invest
in it. And so it just makes everything a little bit easier when
you're not feeling like you're in the middle trying to push for
this, but there's no effort then from folks above you. If you
already got the folks above you saying, hey, let's do this, there's
a different kind of propulsion to it. A couple of other things that
I've noticed that can make a big difference when you've got some
good data to support what you're trying to do. And so that's a
struggle for us in higher ed. We don't have great data on the
employee experience.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:14:27]:
And then places that have figured out how to weave this into a
strategic plan. I'm not typically an evangelist for strategic
planning, but when done well, you can integrate what you are
attempting to do as an organization for your employees. And then
there's some accountability attached to that because you've put out
there, this is going to be a thing for us, and you're more willing
to invest in it. It isn't quite the hurdle that otherwise might
exist because you've got this document that kind of says, this is
something we're going to try to hang our hat on. So all of the
examples I have in the book, you will notice, are places where you
see kind of bubbles of this activity happening, and not necessarily
examples of, here is the caring university, I have found this
place. There are a couple places that I'll be visiting coming up
that I'm very intrigued I can't wait to go because there are a
couple of places where the president is really invested in this
idea and is clearly trying to make this a thing on campus. So I'll
be kind of curious to see like, what does that look like? Are the
effects of it or the outcomes much more evident when you even have
that level of executive leadership support for it?
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:32]:
You talked a bit about the realities of student affairs burnout and
the great resignation. Alongside a sociological phenomenon called
the ideal worker, which I think might be something that's new for a
lot of student affairs professionals because our bodies of
literature don't always intersect. And also in contention with, I
suppose, a set of workplace expectations that cause burnout and
stress for people. So can you tell us a little bit more about that
ideal worker? Because I think it's echoed everywhere in student
affairs and how we might push against that.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:16:02]:
Yeah, so the ideal worker is based in research from feminist
sociologists who were attempting attempting to better understand
really the gendered nature of organizations and why it was the case
that we saw, for example, men who much more likely to be promoted
versus women, much more likely to get a raise versus women. And
part of the way that they made sense of that was through this
concept of ideal worker norms. And they were able to call attention
to the ways that we have this vision of the perfect worker, and it
is almost reminiscent of of like a Mad Men sort of scenario where
you got the male ad executives, they drive to work from their
suburban homes at 7 o'clock in the morning, they drive into the
city, they stay there all day, they have no expectations of
caregiving responsibilities at home, the domestic domain is left to
somebody else to manage, they are expected to be organization men
where they are at that place and loyal to it for a long time. If
somebody calls The expectation is you answer, you show up. And it
was their way of trying to show us that it is still the case in so
many jobs today that we still operate from that as the norm. And
deviation from that norm means that you're not able to be, you're
less likely to be hired, you're less likely to be promoted, you're
less likely to win an award. And it's not fair to people who may
need to take a break in the middle of the day for medication. It's
not fair to people who are giving birth, and it means that we are
losing out, I think, on talent because we still hold on to those
norms.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:17:39]:
We kind of grip them too strongly. And so by taking a closer look
at professionalism as a construct, I think it allows us to kind of
pause and to say, yeah, why do we think that a professional dresses
like this, looks like this, acts like this? And what problem does
it pose for us if somebody's a little bit different? Moving from
that?
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:55]:
I think the answer is the patriarchy, right?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:17:57]:
Right. I mean, yeah, there's some of it. There's that. And but it's
interesting because there's lots of people that can sometimes grip
and hold on to those constructs even when it's not serving them
particularly well. But that just goes to show that when you've been
socialized to a particular system, the whole idea behind a norm is
that it doesn't strike you as particularly unusual anymore. And so
I suppose part of this for me is forcing myself to unsettle some of
those constructs and to be willing to ask some questions around,
well, why couldn't somebody work 3 hours in the morning, work
another 3 hours in the evening? As long as they're still getting
their job done, they're still present, they're engaged, what
difference does it make to me if they need to take a break in the
middle of the day because that's good for their health? Or what
difference does it make if they need to be home at 3 PM for their
kids to come home, get their kids settled, and then they I might
still do a meeting or do some work later on. That flexibility
doesn't seem to harm me, and it doesn't seem to prevent the
possibility for great work to happen.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:55]:
I hear that kind of a line within student affairs. We often say
that quality assessment does not necessarily mean only counting who
shows up to a program. Kind of the same thing, quality work doesn't
mean who's sitting in their seat from 9 to 5. It's more about what
was the impact of what was happening in that day or that event
Right, absolutely.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:19:14]:
Yeah, this idea of quality, effort, performance being a butt glued
to a seat is something that we still, within higher ed, across
higher ed, probably adhere to too much. And again, you know, I
mentioned this on stage, I am not someone who's opposed to the
power of in-person work, in-person experiences, opportunities for
us to engage with each other. There is no substitute for that. And
so I'm a full believer in that. I think we could hold two things at
the same time, which is there's power in in-person gatherings and
having us together in a space to think creatively, and we can have
flexibility. And, and I don't think those things necessarily have
to run crosswise.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:56]:
Another thing you talked about in your conversation with José is
this concept that you wished that universities would take bigger
swings at things. Can you tell us more about what big swings you'd
like to see institutions taking in order to support this caring
university concept?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:20:10]:
I am a big believer that the way that we enter into this work is
that we have to start trying some things. And we have become
somewhat accustomed in higher education to the idea that we never
do anything for employees. We do very small things or tokens of
appreciation. We've almost dialed down our expectations to zero.
And what it means is there is an almost inbuilt defense mechanism
where some folks, when they reach a level of senior leadership,
almost say, I'm not even going to try because what's the point? And
what I want us to do instead is to say we need to rediscover
possibility and potentially start from a position of let's give
this a try. So for me, a swing is not a preemptive no. A swing is a
let's see what's possible. It doesn't necessarily have to be a huge
thing.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:21:05]:
Like, I'm not saying let's go give everybody a 5% raise. I'd love
that. I'm also a finance guy. I understand that there are some real
constraints against that. That doesn't prevent us from taking some
other types of swings. Let's revisit our parental leave policy.
Let's look at how much leave time we give someone for bereavement.
Let's think about how we're understanding and trying to measure
people's workload and figuring out what adjustments may be
necessary.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:21:28]:
Let's do an audit of our programs and initiatives and to say, Maybe
we're doing too much for our current staffing level and we need to
really better prioritize what we're going to work on. Maybe it's
ensuring that we've got good recognitions for all types of
contributions that we value and not rewarding the same people or
the same type of work over and over and over again. Not all of
these are going to necessarily completely transform somebody's
experience, but they can make a difference. And so that's what I'd
love to see is trying. Let's try some things and let's see where we
land with it and what kind of difference it can make.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:58]:
So let's get into the 6 elements of the caring university that you
write about in your book, because it's really the roadmap that
you're providing institutions to follow if they want to take a
swing at this. So we have the areas of prioritizing employees'
experience, empowering rights and voice, humanizing policies and
practices, realizing equity and belonging, committing to growth and
compensation, and cultivating caring leaders. Where would you like
to start in this list?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:22:24]:
One of the ones that I really like that people have really
responded to is actually related to the idea of our campus
strategy. And the whole premise of that chapter is we in higher ed
have come around to this idea of strategic priorities. We see value
in that, and we're going to engage in these exercises where we try
to identify what our strategic priorities are. But what we don't
ever do is follow that with a real consideration of labor. So who's
doing this work? Are they trained for it? Are they going to be
rewarded for it? Do we need to do some hiring into areas that are
going to be necessary to pull this off? Have we really thought
about our onboarding to enable this work and this type of hiring to
happen? So outside of higher ed, much more so than within, we have
the concept of talent management where it is possible for us to
develop a talent management strategy that would feed into or map
onto our campus strategic priorities. So that we can better answer
those questions of like, who's doing this work? Who do we need?
What challenges do we currently have in our capacity to pull this
off? And a big piece of that chapter is also just thinking really
thoughtfully about workload and trying to push us to really think a
little bit more about are we getting a good understanding of how
much people are actually working and what they are able to take on
beyond what they might already be doing if we're going to try to
achieve these bigger aspirational goals. So I like that change
because it's one that I think we haven't really thought about a
whole lot in higher ed. And there's a great chapter from Amarillo
College, which is in the Texas Panhandle, and they offer an example
of what it looks like for a campus to develop a set of values, for
example, really, and a set of strategic priorities that are rooted
in an ethic of care and enable enable us to really see what it
looks like when a campus kind of takes its strategic planning and
strategic priorities seriously in a way that's, I think, thinking
about people and not just treating the people function as an
afterthought.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:28]:
How would you suggest that leaders in student affairs who are
reading this book bring this forward to their senior
administrations?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:24:35]:
So I think that this is a delicate thing because it's already the
case that student affairs Student Affairs can be somewhat maligned
on campuses or already thought of as being a place that is kind of
fluffy. And I think it can be very helpful if a student affairs
leader could partner with a counterpart in academic affairs because
the combination of those two together I think could be more
compelling. Ultimately, the president or the chancellor speaks to
the board or is responsive to the board. And so I think a savvy
student affairs leader is going to have to think about how do we
couch this and may be resonant with board members. One of the
interesting ways that you could do that is to really try to call on
the fact that some of this is not actually specific to higher ed,
it's rooted in organizational management. We are in many cases
outpaced by what they do in the private sector. And so if you've
got a board, for example, that is lots of folks that are coming
from the private sector, they may not find it that unusual some of
the things that we're calling for here. By the way, that may
require that they don't use the language of care care or caring
because that's not the language that they speak.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:25:45]:
It may be much more grounded in language of, this is how we are
going to achieve organizational excellence. And so I think that's
okay. It doesn't need to always use that language if that's not
going to work. And so it might just be kind of thinking
strategically in that way.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:02]:
One of the things that struck me when we were having the
conversation in the big hall was when the Q&A opened, 100% of
the people that asked the question were a brand new professional
and self-disclosed as such.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:26:12]:
What do you make of There is a real curiosity on the part of new
professionals and probably some concern because they're entering
this work at such a strange time where we have had this pandemic
experience, we had the Great Resignation, we're in the second Trump
administration. It has been hard for us to find good news. We have
been institutionally under attack, and I think new professionals
are looking for some reassurance assurance that this is a viable
future, that they haven't made a mistake, that there are still
spaces where they can do great work and find joy and find other
people that they're really going to connect with. And so it doesn't
surprise me that they're coming forward with these questions. And
part of me wonders if it's coming from a place of, I am stepping
into this work, help me understand, help me prepare for, is this
the right move? Should I be thinking about something else. And so
one of the things I really want to always try to be clear on is
that I still love this work. I still think it's a fantastic career,
and our need for change, our need for improvement on some of these
things doesn't negate that there's still so much opportunity for
someone. And so that's part of the message that I try to
convey.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:27]:
For our VPs and our AVPs, deans who are listening, I really hope
that we can take this information and digest it because it's
clearly what matters to our entering professionals. And knowing
that one of our goals right now in the profession is to draw
pathways for persistence in the field. I think this is probably
part of that recipe, along with compensation, which is a
conversation we've been having in the field for a long time. We
can't keep talent unless we're able to compensate talent for what
people should be earning, especially with a master's degree as, you
know, the entry point for our field and all of those things. We all
know that, right? So I think the core message that I would give
from sitting in that room and kind of hearing those new
professionals come forward with curiosity, but also a little a
little bit of anxiousness in their voices, is we need to read this
and we need to figure out what is viable for our institutions in
order to work on that retention model for our student affairs
pipeline. And I know that our incoming NASPA Board Chair, Darryl
Holliman, identified that pipeline as a big strategic priority for
this year's board work. So I think this is all coming together at
the right time.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:28:28]:
Yeah, and as I've said, for me, I treat this very much not as a
work that's designed to call us out, but as an an invitation to
step into this conversation. And I think it could be really fun. I
think it could be really rewarding. This isn't the sort of thing
where, like, as a student affairs leader, I'm going to come in and
be slapped on the wrist for things that are not going well or have
not been great in the past. There's just a chance for us to say, as
we are thinking about the future of our institutions, the future of
our students, we should also be thinking about the future of our
people. How are are we going to be leaders in that space? And
student affairs, frankly, probably could be a leader in this work
and thinking about how we design the best organizations for our
employees so that they're able to do their best work for
students.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:16]:
I think at the core of it too, the work is clear and poignant, but
it's not radical. And I think it's a bit telling that we haven't
had a book in this framing in the, in the profession, at least that
I'm not aware of. I haven't read everything, of course, but I think
that is a moment that we're trying to meet. And we're seeing it in
print and it gives us something to reference.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:29:35]:
Yeah, I agree with you 100%. As I was writing this, I don't think
anything felt particularly radical to me. It's probably only
radical in the sense that these aren't things that we're doing and
it makes us uncomfortable. But the ideas themselves, I think, are
relatively basic. It's the stuff of good organizations. It's
thinking about career pathways. It's thinking about whose
contributions we're recognizing. Yes, it's about fair
compensation.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:29:59]:
It's about professional development. These are all things that we
can get on board with. We just have to take that sentiment that
we're all on board with this and then translate that into some
actual tangible things. And I think if we could do that, if we
could do that even on a small scale, it signals to people who are
maybe in the first 4 or 5 years, I can build a career doing this.
It's not going to be a career where I just have to persevere and I
have to be resilient in the face of all this. It's a career that I
could be supported and I can find community and I can grow and
learn. And I think that would be a remarkable thing. Speaking of
the pipeline, if we are able to send those signals through our
actions, we're going to have more people that want to step in and
we're going to have more people that want to stay.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:42]:
Is there anything else about the book you'd love our listeners to
know?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:30:45]:
I do think that this is a book that you can choose your adventure.
You may not need to read the whole thing. There may be particular
chapters that really speak to your area or your interest, and I
think you could choose accordingly. And the other thing is that
although this is a book about organizational change, there is a
role for each of us to play. And it doesn't mean that we have the
same responsibility. Leaders are going to have a different kind of
responsibility, but we can all be part of thinking collectively
about how we challenge some of our norms. How do we ask some
questions about our hiring processes? Could we expand some of our
recognitions? Are there folks that we feel like are being excluded
that we could make sure get an invitation? So there's a zone of
action for each of us that I think can be very beneficial in
setting some of the conditions to enable the change work to happen.
So even if you're not in the cabinet making policies about
compensation, there's still work here to be done.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:31:38]:
And so it may be a good chance for someone who's reading it to kind
of kind of pausing to say, where is my zone in this? And could I
imagine trying to put some of these principles into practice in my
work?
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:48]:
Kevin, I'm going to transition us into our season's themed
questions. Our theme for this season has been on the value of
student affairs, and we're asking all of our guests the same 3
questions on this theme. So our first one is, when you think about
the value of student affairs, what comes to mind first and why?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:32:02]:
I think one of the very first things that comes to mind when I
think about student affairs is this sense that these are folks that
show up for people. And in the absence of that, in the absence of
that richness, what even is the university? And in that way, the
work of student affairs is crucial. It's crucial to the whole
enterprise. It is not extra, it's not extraneous, it's not outside
of the core work of the university. This is the work of the
university. And so that's the first thing that comes to mind is
just that, that showing up, that being there for people, but for
students, and in many ways providing an example for the rest of
us.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:46]:
Question 2: Can you share a specific story or moment when you saw
the value of student affairs come to life?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:32:52]:
Gosh, just one. I mean, I feel I wouldn't be here if there weren't
for those moments of mentorship, moments of modeling, moments where
I was able to see a student affairs leader show me what it means to
be an educator and what it means to be a leader. My work as a
faculty member is informed by that. My work as a department chair
is informed by that. My student affairs roots is probably more
essential to what I do now than any of my academic academic
training. And so I would point to that as, as kind of a collection
of moments over my own pathway that has been just really kind of
underscoring how important this work is.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:36]:
And our third question: What do you think that student affairs
needs to do to be better understood and better seen in today's
educational environment?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:33:44]:
I struggle with questions like this because there's a part of me
that gently pushes back on the idea that we need to do a better job
of telling our story, or being more visible. Sometimes I think the
problem is that we need other people to pay better attention, and
I'm comfortable calling that out. So as a slight tangent, for
example, we put a ton of stock in public opinion polling right now
in America about the value of higher education. And with all due
respect to the public, sometimes they don't know what they're
talking about. And it's okay for us to certainly try to pay
attention to that, but the idea that we we should be shaping our
practices around public opinion around the value of higher
education when they just don't know is not necessarily the right
approach. Now, I do often think about the fact that it is only
beneficial to our institutions the more we can break down silos. I
know silos get talked about all the time. The academic side is
probably the worst builder and maintainer of silos that one can
imagine.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:34:42]:
It doesn't change the fact that we need to be operating
collaborating and partnering more. We on the academic side hold a
huge responsibility in that, and so I'm comfortable taking that on.
But for student affairs, we have to continue working at that. We
can't necessarily just kind of live inside the student affairs
bubble. We do have to continue to work in partnership with the
entirety of campus to the extent that we can, because I think the
possibilities for change are only going to grow by virtue of that
kind of partnership. And so if I were to point to anything maybe
that could help, that might be something.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:14]:
It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris
to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:20]:
Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's
a ton of things happening in NASPA. There are so many different
NASPA events that are happening, whether you have ever visited the
NASPA site and checked them out or not. Today is a great time to be
able to do just that by going to naspa.org and clicking on events
and online learning. You're going to find a plethora of activities,
events, conferences, summits, and more, all listed in one place.
Whether you're looking for a professional development for yourself
or something for your staff members, there's something for everyone
in one place. I highly encourage you to go and explore the wide
array of opportunities that are available because you're going to
be very surprised at the breadth and depth that you'll find find in
there. There is a virtual summit coming up for individuals that are
connected to community colleges.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:17]:
A Community College Virtual Summit is happening on April 24th,
2026, from 11 AM to 4 PM Eastern Standard Time. In celebration of
Community College Month, NASPA presents this dynamic experience
which spotlights the transformative power of community colleges and
the professionals who lead, support, and innovate within them. At
this summit, you'll be able to explore how community colleges are
not only responding to change, but actively shaping the future of
higher education. Highly encourage you to check it out. Go to the
NASPA website under events for more information. One of the things
that you learned about last week in our episode was talking about
being an engaged member in the association. For every one of us as
members of this association, we have to decide what that engagement
looks like and what that return on investment commitment and being
a NASPA member means. For some of you, it may be getting involved
with a knowledge community, and we just celebrated the 30th
anniversary of knowledge communities being a part of NASPA.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:19]:
If you have never been a part of a knowledge community, you're
missing out because there are over 30 different knowledge
communities that are available for individuals like yourself, and
you can join any of them. It is super easy. If you go to the NASPA
website and go under membership and communities, you're going to
see that you can find out more about divisions and groups,
knowledge communities, as well as regions and areas. I mentioned
knowledge communities, that there are over 30 different knowledge
communities in all of these areas. All of these knowledge
communities are small communities within the larger NASPA. These
small communities are based on functional areas and identities, and
it allows you the opportunity to find your place of belonging
within our larger organization. These knowledge communities serve
as content experts and communities of support for student affairs
professionals like you. I know one of the first ways that I ever
got involved in NASPA was being a part of then the networks.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:15]:
Well, the NASPA networks became the knowledge communities, and I've
been involved with knowledge communities ever since. There are
knowledge communities that are vastly different, and they range in
scope from administrators in graduate and professional student
services to the Black diaspora knowledge community to the gender
and sexuality knowledge community to wellness and health promotion
knowledge community to student affairs partnering with academic and
more. As I mentioned, there are over 30 knowledge communities that
will allow for you to be able to get more involved in some way. For
some of you, that may mean just getting emails to allow for you to
be able to stay informed. For others, it may be taking on a
leadership role or getting more involved in some other way. No
matter what way you want to get involved, I challenge you to find a
way to get involved and take more out of the membership that you
have within this association. Finally today, I just want to say
congratulations to Dr. Lamar Hilton, who was named the board
chair-elect for 2027-2028.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:23]:
Dr. Hilton is the vice chancellor for student life at Indiana
University Bloomington, and I'm super excited to be able to welcome
him to the board chair role as he gets ready for that and will lead
our organization in 2027 and 2028. Every week we're going to be
sharing some amazing things that are happening within the
association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to
date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to
get involved in different ways because the association is as strong
as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within
the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge
community, giving back within one of the, the centers or the
divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, that, it's
important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit?
Where do you want to give back? Each week, we're hoping that we
will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for
you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an
opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge
community. I see myself doing something like that, or encourage you
in ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's
available right now, to offer other things to the association, to
bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the
members within the association. Because through doing that, all of
us are stronger and the association is better.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:59]:
Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening
in NASPA.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:03]:
Chris, thank you so much for always keeping us informed on what's
going on in and around NASPA. And Kevin, we have reached our
lightning round. I've got 7 questions for you in 90 seconds.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:41:13]:
All right, let's do it.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:15]:
All right, number 1, since you were just a conference keynote
speaker, what was your entrance music?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:41:20]:
I don't even know. Were they playing music? I was not. I was
apparently out of body experience. I did not even hear what that
was. Hopefully they made a good choice.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:28]:
To be fair, I don't I don't remember what song it was, but if you
got to pick, what would you pick?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:41:31]:
One of my very favorite karaoke songs is "Whatever You Like" by
T.I., and so that might be one that I go with. Has nothing to do
with me or my keynote. I just like the song.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:39]:
Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when
you grew up?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:41:42]:
I wanted to be a Disney animator, and then that transitioned into
an author illustrator. So I kind of almost got there, just minus
the actual art part.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:50]:
Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:41:53]:
Oh, I have benefited from great mentorship over the course of my
career. I had some wonderful faculty at the University of Maryland.
Maryland, and so they come to mind. I also had great student
affairs mentors, including Dr. Steve Bassesi at the University of
Richmond as an undergrad.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:07]:
Number 4, your essential student affairs read.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:42:10]:
I love Creating Sustainable Careers in Student Affairs, edited by
my friend and colleague Margaret Salih. So I would want, I would
check that out if you'd like the content of my book. That's another
resource.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:21]:
Number 5, the best TV show you've been binging lately.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:42:24]:
We have been watching Shrinking on Apple TV. We like that. We watch
Bridgerton. We like that. I watch Love Is Blind. My wife watches
Love Is Blind and I pretend like I'm not paying attention, but then
I kind of pay attention. I don't know what we're getting out of it
at this point, but here we are.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:39]:
Number 6, the podcast you spent the most hours listening to in the
last year.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:42:42]:
I listen to a ton of Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, and I also
really like Good Hang with Amy Poehler.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:49]:
And finally, number 7, any shoutouts you'd like to give, either
personal or professional?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:42:54]:
Oh man, NASPA, you're amazing. Thank you to everybody that welcomed
me here. So many folks that honestly only knew me sort of, or knew
me on socials, but they've greeted me like a close friend and it's
wonderful. And so just thank you for the community that you all
sustain here.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:09]:
Once again, the book is The Caring University by Kevin R. McClure,
Reimagining the Higher Education Workplace After the Great
Resignation. Kevin, it's been such a pleasure to get to know you a
bit better. I know we've got some mutual friends in common, so I
like expanding the circle. But if other people would like to expand
the circle to include you in it, how would they find you? Where can
people find you?
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:43:26]:
They can find me on LinkedIn. I'm told that I post a lot. I don't
know if that's a compliment or not, but they can also take a look
at some of my work on my website, which is drkevinrmclure.com.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:37]:
Kevin, thank you so much for spending some time and sharing your
voice with us today.
Dr. Kevin McClure [00:43:40]:
Thank you. It's been so much fun.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:46]:
This has been an episode of Essay Voices from the Field, brought to
you by NASPA. This show was made possible by because of you, the
listeners. We continue to be so grateful that you choose to spend
your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email
us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for
Dr. Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and
guest suggestions always. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell
a colleague about the show and leave us a 5-star review on Apple
Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now.
Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:16]:
It really does help other student affairs professionals find the
show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting
community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill
Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris
Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your
support as we create this project. Catch you next time.